Not To Judge #002 - Malaysia's ASEAN Chairmanship: What Really Happened with Norman Goh

Foreign Policy Talks is proud to launch its latest podcast series, Not To Judge, a platform for candid and thought-provoking conversations on diplomacy, strategy, and the shifting dynamics of global affairs.

In this second episode, Noto Suoneto sits down with Norman Goh from Nikkei Asia, a seasoned journalist and respected analyst who has been closely following ASEAN affairs for years. We discuss the key takeaways and standout breakthroughs from Malaysia’s ASEAN Chairmanship and last week’s ASEAN Leaders’ Summit in Kuala Lumpur. Norman also shares some fascinating behind-the-scenes insights from the summit including the mix-up in the mention of a few ASEAN heads of state, as well as the many important bilateral meetings that took place on the sidelines.

And of course, we talk about Donald Trump’s attendance at the summit, a rare moment of high-level U.S. engagement in Southeast Asia and how Malaysia and ASEAN sought to leverage this opportunity to reinforce regional unity and ASEAN centrality.

About the Guest

Norman Goh is a correspondent with Nikkei Asia in Kuala Lumpur, covering politics, business, and international affairs. He joined Nikkei Asia in 2023 and contributed to the newsroom’s SABEW Best in Business Award for Economics Reporting in 2025. He previously worked with Malaysiakini, the South China Morning Post, Channel News Asia, Vice News, AFP, the EU Delegation to Malaysia, and Malaysia’s Foreign Minister. He holds a Master’s in Public Policy from the University of Malaya and is also a registered nurse in Singapore and Malaysia.

About the Host

Noto Suoneto is the Founder of Foreign Policy Talks.

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Available below on Spotify and other platforms

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Transcript

Noto Suoneto: Hello listeners of the Foreign Policy Talks podcast. Welcome back to Not to Judge, where as always, we are not here to judge but to discuss some of the most pressing issues shaping our world today. And as you know, this is our second episode. And after last week's fascinating discussion on Indonesia-China relations with our friend Kevin Lee, we are shifting our focus a little closer to home to talk about ASEAN. As you know, Malaysia has just hosted the ASEAN Leaders Summit last week, and we want to talk about the challenges, the future, and what actually happened last week in Kuala Lumpur. And joining me in this conversation, Norman Goh. How are you, Norman?

Norman Goh: Hi, hi Noto, good to see you. I mean, it's been a crazy whirlwind here in Kuala Lumpur. In the beginning before it started the summit, it was raining like crazy. It's just so, just to show how tropical climate in Southeast Asia can be, right? It's so unpredictable. And then right now, just after the summit, it rains again.

Noto Suoneto: It rains again. Wow.

Norman Goh: Yeah, it just shows that things are, will it turn out to be good? Will it be bad? God knows.

Noto Suoneto: Norman everyone is a seasoned journalist and analyst who's been following ASEAN affairs closely for years. I think he's now with Nikkei, Norman?

Norman Goh: Yes, I am. I've been with Nikkei for the past three years, coming to my fourth year soon. And a little bit of background, I used to be an independent journalist back then with several publications. I've also served in the European Union delegation to Malaysia as well as the Foreign Minister's office here in Malaysia, too.

Noto Suoneto: Wow, full experience in foreign affairs. So, Norman, I was also in Kuala Lumpur last week, but not to attend the ASEAN Leaders Summit itself, of course, but to attend the ASEAN Business and Investment Summit, which was hosted by the ASEAN Business Advisory Council, which I believe has run on the sideline of the main events at the KLCC and around. 

You could really feel the energy there at the event at the business summit, which I personally sense or strongly sense of optimism about regional economic integration and also a clear call to boost intra-ASEAN trade and investment. And I think businesses were very excited at the time to see the opportunities of ASEAN ahead and especially to see that progress, the progress that ASEAN under Malaysia's chairmanship has offered. 

And of course, there was a lot of buzz about Donald Trump's presence, which I will definitely be asking you about later on. But I'll go straight to the first question, Norman. Looking back at Malaysia's chairmanship last week or the summit last week, what do you see as the key takeaways or standout breakthroughs from Malaysia's leadership?

Norman Goh: I think if we look at Malaysia's chairmanship, there's a lot of deliverables coming from the political, coming from the economic side and all that. It's a flurry of things. But one thing for sure, Malaysia has always been trying to make its statement every time it becomes a chair. And this time particularly, it's right in the midst of that huge turmoil of that trade war 2.0 that ASEAN has to maintain its centrality. It is both boon and bane, I would say. 

But, if you were to compare, it is not an apple to apple comparing it to the European Union, this was just for comparison. Look at it, it's very different. I think one thing that really stands out to me is that why ASEAN remains coming to six decades of ASEAN, it's its resiliency. At the end of the day, to maintain its own sovereignty, each member state, and also keeping the block together is not an easy feat. I think this is a pivotal moment where ASEAN had to really think about it's not just about differences of different political systems within the block. Within the block itself is so diverse. 

At the same time, I think a lot of observers or even analysts outside the region tend to sometimes undermine or over-analyze ASEAN. I think the little victories that we have, for example, as simple as cross-border travel and also cross-border payments and things that are also slowly picking up. 

Yes, things are slow. But when you look at it, right, I think there's a lot to celebrate than we lament about. Yes, we always get that kind of thing that, "Oh, ASEAN just talk a lot, a little bit of talk shop," right? When you look at it, it's true... just to say that just because I'm Malaysian... 

There are a lot of challenges, without a doubt. But we look at it throughout the year, it's crazy. A lot of things that Malaysia tried to do, and there were a lot of shortcomings. The Myanmar issue is not over yet. We've tried to handle the Thai-Cambodia issue. Even with Southern Thailand, we have some issues. But these issues have been there for many, many years. I think in a way that ASEAN has tried many different mechanisms. And I've seen with my own eyes, working in various positions, even outside, inside. I think credit has to be given where credit is due.

Noto Suoneto: Wow. It's a very important line that you said, a lot to celebrate from the ASEAN progress. And if I may ask you, what's your rate of Prime Minister Anwar as the chair of ASEAN? Did he do a good job?

Norman Goh: I think overall, I would say it's about 6.5. I wouldn't want to give him a high point. The reason is that, yes, he tries and I give him the credit for it. 6.5 to 7-ish is that, to be honest, right, running here and there at that age, I get tired too. 

Can you imagine two weeks, two long weeks in ASEAN and then he has to travel to APEC, and he's back here again. He had the week before the budget (meeting). Even for us at the age of 30, 40, we can't stand that sort of packed program. It's back-to-back. 

To be honest, with a lot of listeners out there, if you do know the bilateral meetings that Anwar had, it's crazy a lot. Seeing all this is not easy. But I think a point looking back at the chair itself, some would call it a performative chair with lack of substance. There are some, I would say I would agree to some extent, that a lot of... some would call it lip service. But I'll say he tried. Well, he tried. It's not an easy one. 

Whether it's up to agreement or disagreement, some would also comment about the appointment of Thaksin as, remember the Council of Advisors in the beginning of the year about the situation in Myanmar? It raised so many eyebrows and stuff like that. Well, what happened after that, we all know what happened to Thaksin and his daughter. But Anwar, he is who he is and it's quite expected. 

When he takes the position of the chair, to promote not just Malaysia, but also it would set the new direction for ASEAN. I think it was on purpose? Was it just timely? I think it's just very lucky that every time Malaysia tends, there's always that setting of a 10-year program, the 10-year plan, the blueprints, and whatnot. 

Now you have the ASEAN integration and economy for the next 5, 10 years. So I think these are, I don't say it really comes from Anwar himself. I think a team of Anwar working closely with the ASEAN Secretariat in Jakarta. I think it's very, very important that the bloc where it is today has to send out a lot more. 

And you need a loudspeaker. People like Anwar is a really good loudspeaker. Loudspeaker in the sense that it doesn't mean that he's an empty loudspeaker. You need people who understand the need for diplomacy. And the key to this is that to be able to bring leaders to ASEAN, it's not just a talk, but it's also to address some of the key issues. 

And at the end of the day, from the media point of view, statements after statements respond like a tit-for-tat, that doesn't work by playing on the public sentiments. Sometimes you just have to meet them in person and that's when you get things done. A little bit of insider information is this... [whispers] That's the best part about having good microphones, right Noto?

Noto Suoneto: [laughs] That's... Right. I remember this when Malaysia started its chairmanship and I think Prime Minister Anwar introduced ASEAN's Renaissance, right? So I think it's very good to listen to him on how he's actually building up the spirit and also the optimism of ASEAN. 

So, I think he has done a great job, in my opinion. And of course with you here, I'm very interested to know about the behind-the-doors conversation. Were there any notable moments or interesting developments that you saw out of the ASEAN summit last week? And as we know, we all see the accident, right? We can say like that, when your media, your national television wrongly mentioned the name of the head of state. I'm sure it's, it's three, right? Out of 11. It was very unfortunate, but aside from that, what happened last week?

Norman Goh: Well, just like to share with everyone, I was in the opening ceremony within the hall and I saw what happened. And then, I wasn't in the hall when that particular part was mentioned and I was informed by the foreign correspondents who were telling us that it was such an obvious mistake. 

So I raised it up to the Communications Minister. That means such a mistake is so unacceptable, especially when it happened. I think it's more of a minor issue, I would say, because it was quickly addressed and the national TV apologized immediately. But to share with a lot of listeners out there is that, this... the person who made the announcement is actually a part-timer. And then the... yes. And, unfortunately, the person has made mistakes before. 

The weird thing is that there's already a script, and that person did not follow the script and made the mistakes. I think for the listeners out there, what was, what were the mistakes? Number one, the mistake of calling Indonesian President Prabowo as Indonesian President, the former President Joko Widodo. And I made a mistake by calling the Thai Prime Minister, Anutin, as Prime Minister Srettha Thavisin. And the third mistake was so, I know, it's just so weird. How can you call the current Prime Minister of Singapore, Lawrence Wong, as Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong. 

I suppose this presenter, a part-time presenter on RTM, might have been stuck two, three, two, three years ago, I guess. Probably the effects of COVID. So, yeah, it became a national embarrassment. Why, you know, from behind the scenes, I tell you, it's a lot of uproar. And I can't tell you the minister was screaming. I was like, "What the hell just happened?" National TV, RTM, the person, the way the talk was was reprimanded and stuff like that. So, yeah, but then after that, that was that minor kerfuffle. But I think everything else went quite well. At least Malaysia did not f* up with the escalator for Trump. Right?

Noto Suoneto: Yeah, yeah.

Norman Goh: And well, when Trump arrived, what did he do? I was like, "What was he doing?" It was dancing. [laughs] Who was doing, you know, the YMCA, no, no. Kind of like YMCA. But here, we call it Joget Trump. Joget is a type of the local dancers. And then someone called it Zapin. And Anwar was like, "Okay, what should I do? What should I do? Should I dance along? Okay, I'll just do left and right, left and right." And they did it. That video, oh gosh, if you look at what happened with that kind of video when he arrived in Kuala Lumpur, back in the US, it's all over the place. 

FYI, I think her name is Karoline Leavitt, the press secretary to the president, was pushing all this content all over. So it's not just that dance. I think in a way that he felt welcome and it was a warm welcome despite, I think a lot of people don't realize that Trump came to Kuala Lumpur facing a lot of protest, facing quite a number of protests in a number of places in Kuala Lumpur as well. Yeah. I think people may think that it's not reported. Yes, it is reported by both local and international. It is still there. But does that actually affect Trump's talks, bilateral, multi- multilateral kind of talks here in Kuala Lumpur? No, it didn't. That was one of the side things. Look at it, it's that's a fun part of having this sort of diplomacy and the art of diplomacy happening right in front of your eyes. And it's like the body language of all these leaders will tell you a lot more than just statements or opening remarks.

Noto Suoneto: Mm, that's interesting. And I'll go back to Trump later on. But I'm curious to know what the correspondent or media people there see, you know, President Prabowo came back to Jakarta much earlier, right? Than expected. Yeah. So what's the conversation there among the media people about that?

Norman Goh: Yeah, there were a lot of questions. He left on the day of the gala,  right after the meeting and then he left for... he missed the gala dinner. So he kind of raised questions with us like, "Is there, is there a fallout between Anwar and him? Or did he have to run back or something?" But unofficially, we were told that he had to attend to something back home in Jakarta, and then he had to miss it. He said that they will meet each other again in Gyeongju, in APEC. 

So, that's sort of thing. But they were, I'm not so sure. To be honest, very little has been spoken about it because a lot more was discussed... To note to the listeners too, the US did not attend the East Asia Summit.

Noto Suoneto: Mmm. As well. Yeah. Right, right. And President Xi was not in Kuala Lumpur, right, last week?

Norman Goh: Yes, conventionally, Chinese presidents do not attend the ASEAN Summit. So I think of a reciprocal kind of visit, because the King of Malaysia, the Sultan Ibrahim ibni Sultan Iskandar, visited China earlier, earlier of the year. And then, this is sort of like a reciprocal visit when President Xi came sometime early April, late March. That was his official visit by the President. So, and by convention, this is also the question that we asked the Prime Minister's office as well as the Chinese side, and by convention, usually the Prime Minister of China, Li Qiang, will be representing PRC, People's Republic of China.

Noto Suoneto: Right. So, now if we talk about Trump, in your view, like did Malaysia and ASEAN manage to leverage the presence of Trump in Kuala Lumpur? Like to...

Norman Goh: Oh, yes.

Noto Suoneto: Oh, okay.

Norman Goh: Oh, yes.

Noto Suoneto: How is that?

Norman Goh: I think one of the things where you look at, you have to draw a little bit back, dial back to Trump's first presidency, then Biden's presidency, and then to Trump 2.0. 

So, in the past 10 years, there's always this perception during Trump's first presidency of "America First” or "Make America Great Again", that has created a sort of pivoting out of Asia. This creates a sort of vacuum in Southeast Asia. At the same time, that was the time when China announced the nine-dash lines, which are now also known as the 10-dash lines. So, the vacuum of power creates the imbalance of the two worlds because power in South China Sea, in Southeast Asia, for

example. 

With Biden coming into power at the time of COVID, there was a lot more focus on the US rather than Obama's policy of "Pivot to Asia." I think at that time, I can't remember what was his Indo-Pacific Czar at that time. And then now, with Biden out of the picture, with Trump, we would expect a sort of vacuum to continue to establish itself in Southeast Asia, and China will continue to fill up the gap of its presence. 

You can also see the sort of difference between China and the US's language. Language do matter a lot when it comes to foreign policy kind of matters. It tells you a lot about how and where they stand. But I think with this sort of thing, with US coming into the picture, particularly with President Trump, then you have Secretary Marco Rubio, Secretary of State. You have Secretary of Treasury, Besant. US Trade Representative... Secretary of Commerce, Lutnick was here as well. The whole, basically the key people of the trade tariff kind of thing, the the key people with Trump, they're all here. And not only that, days after that, guess who was here? Secretary of War, Pete Hegseth was here.

Noto Suoneto: For the defense minister meeting, yeah?

Norman Goh: Correct. So, what does it mean? It sends a message to key powers and in particular sending it to China is that we're not missing. We're still here. We are here, and if you try to create an imbalance, we are here. It made a statement saying that, don't try to mess with Southeast Asia, don't try to, you know, try to dominate, kind of thing. 

Also from the language, if you look at the intervention by Secretary Hegsetg during a couple of days ago towards the ASEAN-US informal meeting on the Defense Minister's meeting, you could see that sort of it is not that hawkish. It might sound hawkish, hawkish. But in a sense that it provides a sort of option for Southeast Asian or ASEAN member states to say, "Okay, this is the time for us to do a hedging game right now. We have more options for hedging." So the hedging game has always been one of ASEAN's key tools of balancing the power between the two.

But by pushing, you see, when you have Malaysia as a chair and Minister Khaled Nordin took the opportunity saying that, "Well, countries or superpowers should not dictate how ASEAN should react. And ASEAN will remain neutral and will not be pushed to any sides," which is why he pushed for the ideology of "ASEAN First." [chuckles] It sounds like "America First." But I think it's good. It's just pushing that we decide who we want and we decide how we want to act, and we will work both ways. We'll talk to each and every one of you. I think it does like “dont touch us”. If you touch us, we will react as one block. Of course, that sounds very very political in some sense. But it's good to tell that, well, ASEAN is ASEAN, and we are not going to be toyed around by these superpowers. We have our ways to do it. I don't want to use the word "ASEAN way" again, but it is the ASEAN way of, some would say it's a quiet diplomacy, but it's also a balance of a loud diplomacy.

Noto Suoneto: Wow. And um this ideology of so-called "ASEAN First" will be in challenge during Philippines' chairmanship next year, right?

Norman Goh: Oh, yes, of course. I think we had the opportunity to sit down with the Defense Secretary Gilberto Teodoro a couple of days ago. And he made it very clear. I think ASEAN, and then the Philippines looking at it, Philippines will also want to make a statement out of it because they are one of the main founders of ASEAN together with Malaysia and Indonesia. So I think it's also very important, it's sort of continuity in terms of keeping the sovereignty of ASEAN and also the strength of ASEAN comes from that not just consensus, but also the importance of keeping the solidarity.

Yes, there's been a lot of questions about why no one is standing up for the Philippines when they get this sort of aggression coming from China. And they're facing the brunt of what's going on in the South China Sea. I think it's not just the Philippines as well. Look at other claimants of the South China Sea are also facing this sort of pressure coming from the PLA as well. It's very interesting to see how dynamics are going to change. Will it continue? The focus will definitely be a bit different. But I believe strongly that the leaders have already come up with this sort of discussion of having that Troika meeting. I think this is a very interesting point to share that the Troika meeting is the meeting between the current chair, the future chair, and the last chair. So this Troika meeting is going to continue in the next ASEAN kind of meetings.

Noto Suoneto: Yeah. So with the Philippines as chair, meaning that Singapore will be ready to also be part of the Troika, right?

Norman Goh: Correct. And Singapore will be the chair in 2027 at the time when ASEAN celebrates 60 years.

Noto Suoneto: Oh. Exciting.

Norman Goh: Yeah.

Noto Suoneto: And I know they are preparing for the chairmanship since now, right?

Norman Goh: Yeah.

Noto Suoneto: That's good. So, my last question, Norman. You suggested that a single chairmanship cycle is not enough, right? To address the ASEAN complex and uh deep structural challenges. So, what long-term reforms that you suggest for ASEAN to have? I know there's a good thing that we see from Malaysia for this year, which is that, for the first time, foreign ministers and economic ministers sit together, right? To discuss the integration plan and also the future uh economic outlook and also strategy of ASEAN, which is a good thing. So what kind of reforms do you see in the years ahead?

Norman Goh: I think in years ahead is that continuity, continuity of policies. I think the long-term plans and also when leaders come together and really set the implementation plan. The long-term plans and the mid-term plans really help a lot in ensuring the constant implementation of the policies. 

You look at ASEAN 2045. This sort of vision. Yes, vision, you say, "Vision remains a vision. This is like a long-term dream." But let's look at it from a different perspective as well. It sets some goals. It sets an immediate action that ASEAN member states can commit to, can reach and can target to. Even if it comes for net zero kind of thing, and say, "Yeah, yeah, climate thing is going to be hard. Transition out of coal is going to be very, very difficult because we're so..." But if we continue on without these or or or even the reforms in place, ASEAN will continue to be a talk shop and some media will call it like ASEAN is toothless. 

These are things that Anwar, as a chair, has voiced it out since two years ago when Indonesia was the chair that ASEAN needed a needed reform in order to to keep its in order to to maintain as a relevant block in the globe, in order to also at the same time, the rise of the Global South. So, this is an important platform, I think.

I think a few things to consider as well is the ASEAN Charter review. Should we look at the when it comes to, now this year we see that AHA has been, AHA means the ASEAN Humanitarian Action. This year we've seen the situation happening in Myanmar, the earthquake in Myanmar, and then you see what happened in the Philippines, and now we have flooding in Vietnam. So, climate-related disasters or even natural disasters are becoming more and more pertinent in this region. 

So, I think that is also a thing. And then the other part is on the political front. The deadlock with Myanmar cannot be continued like that because we know that the elections will be held on December 28th, followed by the second phase on January 11 or 18, something like that. So, the stand, of course, there will be a split in terms of who's going to agree, who's going to recognize. There's a split of a sort of decisions made by member states. 

Well, some countries in ASEAN may recognize it, some ASEAN countries do not recognize it at all. I mean, one of them, of course, is Malaysia. These are things where we are going to work on it? Are we based on majority, are we going to stick to consensus? Is consensus blocking a challenge for ASEAN as a huge major block for a lot of progress to be done in ASEAN? It's a yes and no. It's very subjective, but it works, it works and it causes a lot of problems in many, many ways. So, I think at the end of the day, this part of the Secretariat is very important. The ASEAN Secretariat has to be empowered even more.

Noto Suoneto: Um, I agree.

Norman Goh: If decisions, yeah, if decisions are always made, "Okay, I have to refer to the leaders. I have to refer to the leaders," then things are not going to be done. 

So, a lot of things can be done from the SOM level. SOM level, the senior officials' level. And I would also think that not every single thing has to be, you know, has to be, has to go to the Leaders' Summit. Yes, Leaders' Summit provides us all motherhood discussion and an agreement, then get it done. These are the things that we have to act fast. Things are going to change a lot more. We're not going to talk about AI. AI is going to change a lot more things. And who would know in the next two to three years, the world powers and multipolar world may turn into unipolar, may turn into multipolar. It's a lot of uncertainty. And next year plus, next year we'll see the full-on effect of the tariffs and how the ASEAN economy is going to weather through the full-on effect of the reciprocal tariffs. 

These are things I think where ASEAN had to look beyond the constraints of politics alone. The political economy. That's why I think it's a good experiment of having both the political and economic ministers sitting together. And I think we really have to iron out the unnecessary non-tariff barriers between ASEAN countries. I think there are a lot of things we can work on together. 

I just got back from Guangzhou last month. I did not carry a single cash. So, I would love to see this happening in ASEAN. ASEAN countries when I travel from one place to another. We already have a pan-Southeast Asian low-cost carrier. We're able to move around ASEAN very easily. The next thing, I think I would like to also give credit to the ASEAN Business Advisory Council, really pushing for an idea, a really really interesting idea about the ASEAN Business Entity and the ASEAN IPO portfolios. And, you know, you can also see that ASEAN big businesses, MNCs are doing second listings in different parts of ASEAN countries and also pushing their own ASEAN brand. It can range from banking, finance, retail, FMCG. These are good. I mean, what is ASEAN if we don't support our own ASEAN brand, isn't it? These are things that I think we got to, we got to create our own champions in ASEAN. 

Okay, now I sound very diplomatic, very very much like a huge promoter of ASEAN. But it is what it is. Having to see to be inside, on the outside, and in between, you got to see, I think there's a lot more to discover rather than downplaying ASEAN. I think let's create more wealth and better opportunities within and also strengthen ASEAN to be a strong bloc. This is a place where more than 700 million people. And in the next 10 years, Indonesia and the Philippines will be the world's two largest middle-income populations. Mm. It's huge. 

So, when you have a large middle income, this does not actually come from world data. I've been the other day during Mastercard's ASEAN Inclusive Growth. The world data shared that Indonesia and Philippines will be the two largest, one of the two largest middle-income populations. And what does it mean? When we have a larger middle income, it means big spending power. Money. So, these are the opportunities that we can grow. But of course, I think without a doubt, I also like to point out the important part of the reforms. It's been 60 years and we have yet to see real reforms in ASEAN. And now with East Timor, Timor-Leste is the 11th member. I think it's far more crucial for us to really reform ASEAN because in the midst of all these uncertainties, we really need to strengthen ASEAN moving forward.

Noto Suoneto: Wow. So, you know what? I've been actually working on ABE, or ASEAN Business Entity, since 2023, since Indonesia's chairmanship. It was still a very rough idea. And so it's very happy to, very happy to see that it's been progressive actually this year. 

I also see the announcement of and support actually from your government about this ABE because I agree that there are a lot of actual business champions in ASEAN that should be more incentivized, right? Because we look into a region and we also need to get more policy and practical support on how we can also bring more economic impacts to the society in this region. 

I agree with you that ASEAN progress will not only need strong political will from its leaders, but also need to reform at its own institution, right? That's the so-called Secretariat and many other agencies of ASEAN. So that's a very powerful message. Let me end by asking you one more thing. 

So, how about the impression towards Timor-Leste, who's just joining ASEAN for this year, right? So, what's the conversation there last week?

Norman Goh: Oh, you should see the situation in the international media center. Everybody was standing up, clapping for Timor-Leste. And we met our colleagues from Timor-Leste, they were in tears. Wow. They've been waiting for it for many years. 

For a lot of listeners out there, Timor-Leste has been trying to apply to join ASEAN since 2011. That's a long 14-year wait. And Timor-Leste is one of the poorest countries in our region. I think it's really high time for us to show the world what ASEAN can do, and we can prosper thy neighbor because at the end of the day, we are in one big family of Southeast Asia. 

We're all one big family of people so diverse. And at the same time, you look at it, right? You remember the word, we share almost the same language between Malaysia and Indonesia, Brunei and Singapore. It's a "kampung." Actually, the word in English is called "compound." "Compound" actually comes from the word "kampung." "Kampung" is like you have different houses, different communities living in one compound. And this is the thing, the "kampung," you know, people may have some negative perceptions, "Oh, kampung is so backward" and things like that. No, no, no, no, no. It's more than community. 

I think looking at Timor-Leste is that, yes, they are economically not as advanced with the ASEAN-6 economies and all that. This is the best opportunity to show how ASEAN and its expansion. In fact, it's more strengthening the whole ASEAN as a block that you are able to create a safe space, you're able to create the TAC that, and this is a peace zone. You also help to protect Timor-Leste in one sense. 

But at the same time, helping people of Timor-Leste to grow. Yes, it's very, very, very far if we look at it from the point from Jakarta or even in Singapore. But at the end of the day, it's one of ours, you know, they are brother, sister, our siblings. And you look at it, this is, I think, very welcoming. 

Yes, over the course of the year, you could see the sort of tension, whether or not Timor-Leste will be sitting as the 11th member or not. Were there discussions about, "Oh, which member countries disagree?" and things like that. Yeah, there were. But at the end of the day, when you see Prime Minister Xanana Gusmão, when he signed, he was in tears. And you could see it as like, "Wow." It's like, "Wow, finally, right? After so long." And I feel it as like, proud to be Malaysian, proud to be ASEAN. See that, "Yeah, this is happening here in Kuala Lumpur." 

I think, you know, what's the path forward right now? They are in. What's the next thing? How are we going to help them? Yes, there's a direct flight from Kuala Lumpur to Dili. That's the thing. So, I think a good thing is that, let's go and check out what Dili is. And I think the good thing is that Malaysia, just now we talk about ABE, Malaysia actually announced it. The promotion and the push for ABE is also included in Malaysia's budget. That's one thing that made it very clear that this is their commitment to it. 

And then for Timor-Leste, I think ASEAN-6 or ASEAN-5 economies that have, they're more the middle, upper-middle income and also developed economy, can be very, very useful in helping smaller member state countries like Timor-Leste and helping improving the economy. And at the same time, it also helps them give them options of not relying, yes, there will be a stronger economy or superpowers coming in. Yes, there will be. Even the EU wants to come in, China or US, and things like that. But also, at the end of the day, you know, you are part of ASEAN. 

I think ASEAN member states should use this opportunity to grow together with Timor-Leste and you have the capability to do so. Think about it. When ASEAN first started, how did we grow from where we are today? You got to think about how do we make ASEAN a more trusted brand and also a trusted platform? Because at the end of the day, this is going to be a point where ASEAN is going to be the voice of the Global South. This is good. And this is an opportunity for us to use this kind of platform.

Noto Suoneto: Wow, that's a very important message. You know, Norman, I think you should be the one who is presenting the national television report last week.

Norman Goh: [laughs] No, it sounds like I'm running for elections. So...

Noto Suoneto: You can be the spokesperson of ASEAN. I can give you full support.

Norman Goh: Maybe, maybe if anyone who's from the ASEAN Secretariat would like to hire me, please feel free to contact me on LinkedIn. I'm just joking, just joking. I would love my job being a journalist. Because being a journalist, you can just put your ears everywhere. And that's the fun part about being on the ground and you see for yourself, it's like, "Okay, how is the Secretariat doing? Who's talking what? Who's talking to who?" Oh, it's a lot of plethora. 

I think at the end of the day, the best thing about being a journalist is that it's not about, you know, taking pictures with all the leaders. No, no, no, no, no. We are asking questions on behalf of the people. That's the best thing. Yeah. But we have the chance to meet them. Yeah.

Noto Suoneto: So I'll give you some questions next time.

Norman Goh: No problem. Yeah, and FP can like we can have a Chatham House Rule, a closed-door meetings with some of the top leaders. That's the next thing that we can do, right?

Noto Suoneto: Yes, yes. Let's do it. So listeners, thank you very much for Norman, for joining us for this podcast. We're very happy to have him today. Please appreciate and listen to this and follow us also on different social media of Foreign Policy Talks. 

For those of you who'd like to read the summary or the full transcript of this episode of Not to Judge, just visit www.foreignpolicytalks.com. And you can also find insightful analysis, articles from our members there, and definitely it's worth checking out. So thank you very much, Norman, and good to see you.

Norman Goh: Thanks for having me here. Please like, follow, and subscribe.

Noto Suoneto: Thank you.